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This is Jay Allen Heineck, astronomer and scientific advisor to the United States Air Force.

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For the next half hour our reporters will question him in an unrehearsed press conference about

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unidentified flying objects, flying saucers in space.

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Press Conference.

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K-A-B-C-T-V brings you an exclusive and unrehearsed interview with Jay Allen Heineck,

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asking the questions of him, our John Bilby, staff writer for the Herald Examiner,

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and Bill Wilkes, West Coast Bureau Chief for Technology Magazine.

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Charles George from Channel 7 News will serve as moderator for press conference, which will begin in just one minute.

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Dr. Jay Allen Heineck, Dr. Heineck is an astronomer.

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He's a full professor at Northwestern University and has been employed or engaged in the employment

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as the consultant of the Air Force for flying saucers in the past number of years.

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Dr. Heineck, let me put it this way. Do you believe that flying saucers exist in the...

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just regarding those reports that are apparently something that can be observed like balloons or something?

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Yes, the UFOs.

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I would like to clarify two things right away. One is, do you believe in flying saucers?

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I believe this is an element of faith that works on here.

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The word of belief, I believe, belongs more properly in theology than it does in science.

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I think we should say, what is the evidence?

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What extent does the evidence lead us to think that this is more probable than that, rather than do you believe?

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Because in a sense you might say, I believe in Madagascar.

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Oh, they've never been there.

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So I'd like to have that point clear. And then the perhaps distinction between UFOs and flying saucers.

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Flying saucers to me implies already an interpretation of the fact,

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whereas a UFO is basically a report of something that has puzzled somebody.

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Do UFOs exist from scientific evidence?

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Most certainly UFOs as reports of tremendously interesting things exist.

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And I also want to separate the UFO from the IFO.

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A UFO simply means that it's an unidentified flying object.

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And it is unidentified to the person seeing it, or to a group of people.

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It may not be unidentified to people more technically trained,

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so that you have in the great majority of cases that I have examined at the Air Force,

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the great majority do turn out to be perfectly normal things.

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I say that an IFO, which starts out as a UFO, is a usual thing seen under unusual or surprising circumstances.

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But then we are left with the residue, rather small residue, sort of like a needle in a haystack situation,

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of extremely puzzling cases. And I'd like to, for the rest of our discussion here,

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reserve the term UFO for this residue of extremely puzzling cases.

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What would this percentage be?

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It's less than 5% of the cases reported.

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What seems to be the common characteristic of these UFOs?

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The pattern varies widely, but they do have certain geometric, luminescence, and kinematic characteristics.

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And the emotions, for instance, are very easily described.

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But if I were to try to get a least common denominator here,

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just try to sum up what the majority reports.

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And I should also point out that for a long while we thought that UFOs were a peculiarly American phenomenon.

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That was sort of a post-war thing.

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A sort of hysteria, the silly season and this and that.

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And I went along with that for quite a while.

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In fact, in 48 when I first started, I would have taken just about any bet that by 1951 or 1952

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the whole thing would be utterly forgotten, would pass with the goldfish eating craze and things like that.

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But one of the most significant things in the whole phenomenon has been its persistence.

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And not just from the United States, but from, well, well over 70 countries in the world.

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And you may ask questions, how do French UFOs compare with Brazilian UFOs?

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How do they compare with American UFOs?

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Well, we can say that there are, as far as reports and remembering that UFOs are reports.

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I like to get into a little bit about photographs and hardware and so forth.

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But for the moment, they're reports and they have certain great definite similarities around the world.

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There have been a lot of alleged photographs and many of them are very similar.

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If we had somehow come upon photographs with light-model Russian planes,

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there would be aeronautical engineers who'd be studying what design sophistications were.

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Have engineers been studying these photographs to see what their suitability is for space travel?

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Well, the photographs, if we did get a photograph of a new Russian vehicle,

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we'd know in the beginning, our priority, much more about how that photograph was taken,

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what it represented, than we do when we are given a UFO photograph.

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I was asked on a similar program not too long ago,

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well, in which the moderator, we have a very nice moderator here,

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was getting quite mad at me for apparently taking the wind out of some of the UFO buffs' sails.

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What would it take for you to believe a photograph?

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Well, I said I would, if I were to present a photograph in court,

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I didn't see we had a progression investigation or a court,

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and I had to say, do you, somebody ask, do you have a photograph that you will present?

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I would present it if the following things, I think, were true.

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If I had an affidavit from two independent witnesses who had seen the photograph being taken,

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and then if I could have the original negative and some technical data on the camera,

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the ephanometer shutter speed and the emotions characteristics,

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then I would think I'd be foolish not to believe it.

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But up to now, I have not ever received any photograph that fulfills these criteria.

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No photograph at all from any place in the world?

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No, sir, no photograph from any place that fulfills these simple criteria.

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Some come close to it, and I'm not saying that this does not imply that all photographs are hoaxes.

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We can still know.

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One can't help but think of the report in one of the major magazines.

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There's two people who were apparently taken aboard a spaceship and were dead.

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It's like a hill.

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How do you regard that? This was up in the Northeast.

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Well, I've had the opportunity to talk with the hills,

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and I find them extremely normal people,

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and fortunately, I guess in this case, I'm happy that I'm an astronomer and not a psychiatrist,

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because I can easily say that I'm not competent to pass on a thing.

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All I can say is simply that the hills, to me, seem to be convinced,

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and as far as they feel, they have this experience.

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I could not call them liars, but whether a psychiatrist would bridge out their subconscious

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of some hidden things that cause them to think they have this experience, I just wouldn't know.

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Does financial gain come to them or to many other people who've reported?

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Certainly not in the beginning.

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I think they have lately from some of their appearances, but I feel quite certain they didn't go into it for that.

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Well, your point about financial gain is an interesting thing.

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UFOs are reports. They exist as reports at the moment.

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One thing that I've often asked myself is, why does a person make a report?

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What does he have to gain, except really do?

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And I get letters upon letters saying,

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if this will help you in your scientific work, I'm happy to send you the information.

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And these reports are quite articulate. They're not crack-parts of things.

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But they'll invariably say, I cannot permit you to use my name because I'm a teacher

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with my influence in the renewal of my contract, or we have a child in school,

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and we don't want him to be the butthole of sarcastic remarks.

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But they have nothing to gain. They get no money for making a report,

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but they'll do it. I get many letters that will start off.

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I wasn't going to report this, or I haven't reported it for many years,

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but I feel it's in my civic duty, or if it will help scientific investigations find.

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What about real scientific investigations? I'm thinking now, not just the investigation of the UFOs, per se.

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I'm thinking now of the great scientific research capability we have in this country.

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And this is very great.

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It's never been mobilized for this purpose, and I think it should be.

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What about investigations into some method of perhaps duplicating such phenomena?

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Perhaps I'm thinking of some cloud-changing work, perhaps.

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I've seen plasma work there, and we have a lot of plasma work.

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Should there be something like this done to try to see if we can't simulate it?

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Yes, you know, read up an extremely important point here.

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It's just starting to be done.

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It wouldn't, it would serve us in science, and no one any good, to go another 20 years,

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and get another 10 or 15 or 20,000 reports.

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It would just really add more points on the curve, but it would add nothing new.

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But we need to go from the passive to the active phase.

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Put up or shut up.

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In other words, we have to ask the U.S. for what to do this, essentially.

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And by active phase, I mean, well, now look at it.

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If the policeman, in a number of cases at Ravenna, at Exeter, at Monticello, at Fogoro,

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and Michael Golan, named a whole bunch of them, had had a camera that was loaded,

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and if they'd known how to use it, or if the girl's in Hillsdale,

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and it's a place to do a little swamp gas place, your famous place.

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I think I should do a medal for having made this issue as a household word.

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And anyway, to have these girls, they said they saw these lights going back and forth

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over the swampy area for more than two hours.

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It didn't occur to any of them to take a simple camera,

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set her on the windows, going to take a time exposure.

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We would at least have had something.

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Well, of course, this would have to meet your conditions.

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And whereby you have two observers in addition to this photography.

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We had something to eat in the early air at the time, so I think we could have met that condition.

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Do we know anything about flying saucers?

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Or are you ever lost?

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Yes, I would say that we do.

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Good, and on that point, let's pause for just a moment for this message,

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and we'll return with the answer to that question after this.

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Our guest today, I'm for this conference, is Dr. J. Allen Heineck.

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Dr. Heineck is a member of the...what is it, Dr. Lindheimer?

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Lindheimer has a number of students in Northwestern University.

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Dr. Heineck has been involved in the investigation of unidentified flying objects for a number of years,

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since about 1948.

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That's right.

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I posed the question just a moment ago, Dr. Heineck.

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What do we know about flying saucers?

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I used the term...

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You might probably feel this was a rigged question, and I'm sort of glad it came up,

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because way back last summer I wrote a letter to Science Magazine

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feeling that it was time to bring this to attention of my fellow scientists.

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I've traveled for a long while, like some traveler to distant countries,

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and when he comes back he sort of has an obligation to describe the natives.

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Nobody wants to see his slides.

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Nobody wants to see his slides. That's right.

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So I did address a letter to the Science Magazine, and I'd like to...

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Just so happens I have it here.

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There are some of the basic...this answers your question, however, I believe.

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There are some basic misconceptions about UFO reports.

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For instance, one is that only UFO buffs report UFOs.

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The exact opposite is almost the truth.

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Another misconception is that UFOs are reported by unreliable, unstable, and uneducated people.

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This is, of course, true, but UFOs are reported in even greater numbers

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by reliable, stable, and educated people.

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And UFOs are never reported by scientifically trained people.

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This is definitely wrong. I have some very fine reports found.

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Very well-fined, highly trained people, but they all want to retain their anonymity.

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We are developing, in fact, sort of an invisible college of...

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Not only in this country, but in England, France, Argentina, Brazil,

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maintain sort of a network of spies, kind of.

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That's the wrong word. Even underground is too much.

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Just sort of scientist anonymous who are, again, expected, very real interest,

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but feel it because really cute as films, so likely they don't want to say much.

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I get right back to this question. What do we know?

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What do we know? We know that there are reports that come from many of which come from reliable people.

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Many, of course, come from unreliable people.

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We're dealing with reports.

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We're dealing with reports. Do we know anything more than reports?

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We have no hardware.

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To the best of my knowledge, and this is a wild rumor that comes up every once in a while,

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the right field has some little green men locked away in some downstairs cavern.

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I heard the rumor that General or President Eisenhower, one time,

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spoke with a man from a flying saucer.

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I haven't heard that one, but the rumor mill is terrific in this game.

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And there's never been an authenticated piece of hardware.

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No UFO has ever dumped anything off the coast of Spain.

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I think the source is it's never gotten in trouble, so hardware is out.

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And as I've already talked about photographs, there's nothing tangible.

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So, of course, it is quite logical for the Air Force and science in general to say for years.

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Well, since there's no hardware, nothing tangible, not even good movies or photographs,

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why bother with it? Just a bunch of nuts reporting things.

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And of course, there are nuts. A lot of them.

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These people who tell you they've taken rides in flying saucers and they've described conditions on Venus

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which never agree at all without a scientific finding.

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If they went to Venus or Mars and came back with something that you could test,

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they gave us the temperature on the surface of Mars.

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They gave us something about the chemical composition of planets.

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But no, they always come back with some highfalutin story about tall, blond people

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and a great many love adventures on Venus and Saturn.

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That's what I may pursue the question I brought up a while ago.

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You say that some scientific investigation, that is outside of the pure,

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repulsifying saucer, implying that perhaps some work is going on in the lab now.

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Did you explain a little bit of that?

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Well, the Condon Committee of the University of Colorado has been charged now with the responsibility

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of taking a scientific look at UFOs.

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And Ed Condon has worked for years as you know, the director of the Bureau of Standards

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and a very solid person in the whole scientific field.

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He and his group are really taking a look at this and I cannot speak for them, obviously.

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But I understand that they are undertaking investigations of physical things.

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For instance, such things, many, many reports come in saying that a person's car was stopped.

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UFO came by and their car stopped and when the UFO left, the car started again.

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What about duplicating the appearance of a flying saucer in say a plasma chamber or a cloud chamber?

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Some work along those lines has been done in other investigations

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and I think you can create phenomena that would give that appearance.

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Could engineers figure whether the disc its shape, for example, of a common saucer photo

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would be more suitable for space or for...

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Yes, I think they could do aerodynamically, but if the UFO was the one that it described as

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intense bright lights turned out to be plasma, then this is really something that the A and C

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should know about because this would go a long way in the Atomic Energy Commission.

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This should go a long way in solving the magnetic bottle problem.

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The problem is how do you contain plasma?

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Well, if nature has figured out some way of containing plasma in 30 feet globes or discs

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then we should know about it.

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It should be...you're quite right, it should be steady.

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I think that the Connick Committee is doing precisely the best explanation you have right now

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of the so far unexplained side of you that reported to you, those that you can't explain away by

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natural phonon or something else.

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What is the best explanation you have of flying saucers right now or do you have one?

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Something you do not.

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I think we have to say in all honesty, if there's anything...

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Well, let's put it this way, there are, say, four large categories in which explanations fall.

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One, of course, the one that you wish for so long, that's all nonsense.

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It's still a slight probability that that might turn out to be the case, but I don't think so.

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Second is that it's all...there are secret weapons being tested by the government or that government.

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But that seems unlikely to me simply because it's hard to keep a secret for 20 years.

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There are dozens of tests, secret devices in 70 countries.

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The third is, of course, extra-trust free intelligence, ETI.

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This is a popular one because it's amazing how the human race wants devoutly to believe,

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and here I use the word believe in its proper sense, wants to believe in possible health from outside,

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or they desperately want to, they're looking for a scientific father image of its size.

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And, of course, astronomers will go along with the idea that there is life, very likely life elsewhere,

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because there's only provincial things today that there isn't.

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The problem is, of course, getting and communicating. That's a totally different situation.

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And then the fourth possibility is that it we're dealing with here-to-forth unknown,

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but perfectly natural, normal, physical phenomenon.

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And you say, well, how can this be?

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On the other hand, just put yourself back 100 years.

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Suppose somebody, you know, when somebody was crossing the plane in a covered wagon,

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somebody had globally began to talk about nuclear energy.

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On a note, they didn't even know that Adam had a nuclear sweat alone, that you could get energy out of it.

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They were going to totally incomprehensible things, people at that time.

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Well, how do we know, just because it's 1967, that by the year 2567,

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we won't know things that will make our knowledge today look childish,

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and at that point, let's pause for this message.

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Taken in 1952 in Pasek, New Jersey, by an amateur photographer,

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how do you interpret that photograph? And are there enough of them?

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I wouldn't know how to interpret it, since I don't have the original negative.

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It's been a crop. We don't have any background.

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In the bottom one, there is background.

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But how do we know that it may be perfectly correct, or perfectly authentic?

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On the other hand, it may be a hoax.

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And unless we have the original negative and the technical data on it,

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it's almost pointless to try to interpret it.

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Photographs really tell us anything.

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If they're properly taken, and if we know that certain samples under which they were taken,

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they'll certainly be taken. And I think that the real need,

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and I would like to almost make a plea unbend the need here,

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that we need photographs.

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And I think particularly, please, squad cars should be equipped with cameras.

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Cameras are less expensive than guns.

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And if there is squad cars carried cameras,

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we'd probably eventually get some pictures which means desperately need.

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You're the principal civilian consultant to the Air Force on UFOs.

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Because if you were to find irrefutable evidence that UFOs came from another planet,

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would you be prevented from making this public immediately,

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or would this be delayed in any way?

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Not at all. As a scientist and a professor at an independent university,

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I would have every right to say what I want.

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I would probably take counsel, because suppose if we've had this evidence,

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and if we were hypothesizing that we were absolutely certain,

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then I think it would be important to let certain government people know first, let's say.

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But as far as whether I would be, say, modeled, chemical standing,

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I could do anything that all classified about your investigation, the Air Force does.

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I know they've frequently been accused of this,

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but the classification occurs when military installations are concerned,

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or sometimes when we find that a person is going to report from a person to a mental institution,

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or a person with a criminal record, it's far better to classify that report

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than to open this person to embarrassment.

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What are your personal views?

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From all the things you've been studying until 1948, what do you think they really are?

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Are they from outer space? Are they from some other planet?

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I would have to say we must keep an open mind,

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I honestly don't know what I think is that we now finally are coming down to a real scientific investigation of this whole matter

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which should have been done a long time ago.

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Thank you very much for being with us today, Dr. Heineck, our guest Dr. J. Allen Heineck,

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from the United States, the most gravest authority on unidentified flying objects and flying saucers.

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Thank you again for being with us.

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I hope you'll be back with us again next week at the same time until when.

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This is Carl George. Good afternoon.